[Pmwiki-users] Information gems regarding PmWiki

Thu Jan 8 05:22:36 CST 2004

After seeing what I wrote below,
I'd better warn that it's a bit off-topic :-)

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Patrick R. Michaud wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 12:20:28AM +0100, Jean-Claude wrote:
> > Since we have a wonderful tool (PmWiki!) which is just perfect to put 
> > things in files and themes where they belong and therefore become very 
> > easy to retrieve, may I suggest that we use the mailing list to announce 
> > subjects, and to provide an appropriate link to the PmWiki site where 
> > the explanation should be developped, kept and organized ?
> 
> In many senses I agree.  But traditionally wikis have not been good
> replacements for threaded conversations such as those that take place
> on a mailing list.  In wiki-circles this is known as ThreadMode, and it's
> described/discussed at http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ThreadMode, with an
> excellent description of many of the problems of ThreadMode wiki at 
> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?HowToWriteAndEditThreadMode .  

In my experience (now I'm starting to wish I could use IME for that)...

IME, using (pm)wiki for a discussion isn't working that well.. one 
important drawback is that you're not notified when someone else adds 
something to the page (I guess a cross between wiki and news is really 
needed here).

I and John Rank have been using this a little bit when I'm helping him 
on his creation of a table-of-contents thingy, but e-mail is still 
something that we need. The wiki page works much better as an 'archive', 
i.e. a place where you jot down notes for a bit more 'long-term' storage.

> Plus, for me at least, I find it's a lot easier for me to compose 
> explanations in an email or mailing list context than a wiki one.
> This is probably just because I've been used to doing it that way 
> for so long and it's hard for me to switch.

Another explanation might be that when you author a wiki-page, you feel 
more pressure on producing something good... _everybody_ can read what 
you've written there, whereas only _some_ people will see your e-mail
(I know, it's a bit silly, but even a mail to list feels more "private")

> Instead, what I try to
> do is go ahead and write in the environment that seems most comfortable
> (sometimes email, sometimes wiki), and then after the information has
> been developed a bit the information is moved over to a wiki format.

You might have touched on another aspect here... 
  Writing wiki page:
	- Using a crude <FORM></FORM> in a browser window.
	- Not the usual keyboard shortcuts, no spell checking etc.
	- The browser can crash, or you accidentaly press Ctrl-Q...
	  (you'd be surprised how often I do that mistake)

  Writing e-mail:
	- You're using your MUA of choice (unless you're at work ;-)
	- You've got your own, customized keyboard shortcuts etc
	- If something crashes, there's a "backup" of you're unsent mail

Working in general with the wiki is a bit more userfriendly with accesskeys
	http://wiki.lyx.org/pmwiki.php/Site/AccessKeys

but the actual writing of pages is still not so fun. In the development 
version of my pmwiki-mode, I've been getting very lazy since I can now 
press C-e in my browser (Opera) and the wiki-page is opened for editing in 
Emacs...  I simply don't edit pages using the <FORM>-element any more.

(I've been meaning to release this version, but I started documenting 
pmwiki-mode from scratch and got side-tracked... seriously side-tracked).

> Also, I find that information on a mailing list tends to invite more
> commentary and response than if it's in a wiki page, and that's pretty
> important to me at the moment.

I agree... and although people can be afraid of posting the first 
time on a list, it's still less scary than posting to a wiki.
Somehow there's also a time aspect here... it feels quicker replying by 
e-mail... maybe because it goes directly to the recipient?
Another aspect might be that we (incorrectly) think an e-mail will 
disappear over time... so any stupid things we write will be forgotten 
soon, whereas writing something stupid thing on a wiki-page wont :-)

> In the meantime, here are some other ideas:  First, perhaps we should
> find ways so that useful information generated in the mailing list
> discussions can migrate over to wiki pages.

Definitely... and any solutions here might well be applicable to other 
areas (i.e. wiki-site v.s. mail list combo).

>  I haven't been as good about
> keeping up with this as I'd like to be but will try to do so in the
> future.  Certainly whenever someone asks a question that causes me to
> search the archives I take that as an indication that the information
> needs to be put in the wiki (this is how I generated the PmWiki.FAQ), 
> and others are welcome to take the initiative to post things into the
> wiki as well.

Could you comment on what the general "policy" is for adding things to the 
pmichaud-site? Especially to the pages in the PmWiki/-group.

I know it's a wiki, so we can all edit it... but I'm still confused at 
times about what I should add and where. The answer will probably make a 
nice page somewhere in the PmWiki/-group btw... (oh wait... then that page 
will be copied when pmwiki is installed somewhere else..)

Idea: Maybe pmichaud.com needs a dual pmwiki-installation? One that simply 
contains documentation for the latest 'stable' release, and one where we 
other users can add pages/information knowing that it won't be released 
without you auditing it first?

/Christian

-- 
Dr. Christian Ridderstr?m, +46-8-768 39 44       http://www.md.kth.se/~chr