[pmwiki-devel] Announce: pmwiki-social

[Patrick R. Michaud]

[The original post was sent to pmwiki-devel, which is not the
purpose of the pmwiki-devel list.  Please send any followups
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On Mon, Apr 30, 2007 at 04:47:49PM +0000, J. Meijer wrote:
>    We need a pmwiki-social list. That's a start to value our members and our
>    community more. 

Decline.  The pmwiki-users list can certainly double as pmwiki-social,
and has done so in the past.  In particular, I have trouble imagining
posts that would be appropriate for pmwiki-social and inappropriate
for pmwiki-users.

> Like what's happening now with Dan isn't his fault, it is
> a consequence of a community lacking, forcing everything through the
> semantics of pmwiki-users!

I disagree with this on several fronts.  

First, in some ways what is happening with Dan *is* his 
fault, in that some of his posts go against open-source
community norms and expectations (likely unintentionally).

- Open source communities consider forks to be a Bad Thing [1],
  and for all intents and purposes ZAPWiki looks like a fork,
  regardless of whether Dan chooses to call it one.

- Open source communities don't like unsubstantiated claims.

- Open source communities don't like misdirection (e.g., the
  ongoing confusion between ZAP, Acme, ZAPEngine, ZAPWiki, ...),
  false representations of identity, or other forms of "spin".

In citing the above I'm not at all intending any sort of
personal attack on Dan, or to imply that he has suspect motives.
I'm simply saying that several of his actions, intentional or not,
can be reasonably construed to violate open-source community
norms, and it's both natural and appropriate that the community
expresses its discomfort with perceived threats to the community.

Second, I disagree that any of this is being "forced" through the
semantics of pmwiki-users.  PmWiki-users is designed for discussion
about PmWiki, and that's what is happening.  

In another perspective, Dan has commented several times that
he feels a forum is superior to a mailing list for answering
these sorts of questions.  Taking Dan at his word, perhaps 
everyone would be better served if there were a ZAP forum 
somewhere, and then Dan could simply direct any questions 
regarding ZAP, Acme, etc. could simply be directed to the forum,
without having to repeat his answers on the list.

> So, _please_, stop treating Dan as some alien. Give him a place. His needs
> represent the needs of many *contributors*, by being of the unselfish
> category. [...]  So I confront Pm with the (passive) suppression of 
> social interaction. 

I think I'm innocent on this charge, but I'll let my past actions
(or non-actions) speak for themselves.  I'll also note that Dan's
posts don't seem to make this claim -- he seems to feel that I've
been sufficiently supportive of his efforts.

> Again, we need to build more then pmwiki, we need to build a 
> community. Let's be serious about this. 

We _have_ a community.  Several people have commented about this
on the mailing lists.  The community we have may not be 100% of
what everyone wants... but then that's the nature of an open community.
And any sort of argument or heated discussion is an indication that
people are taking it seriously.

>    Open-source isn't all roses, especially for the international developers,
>    as all credit and ownership flows to english-language users. Not only the
>    code, but also the community itself.

I'm not exactly sure where this is directed.

>    Regardless of any opinion on Dan with respect to him responding in
>    _personal_ mode (a God given right if you ask me), he is a phenomenon and
>    has a vision most others tend to hide. Please do not provoke or measure
>    him to whatever standard, as he already lives by them. The very act is
>    therefore provocative, yet you do not seem to understand this. Dan needs
>    to respond in personal mode, there is no intent (there are only motives)
>    to 'hammer' on his part.

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander... this very post
seems to be asking that others refrain from expressing opinions
on pmwiki-users, or ascribing intent to what others have written.

[The original post was sent to pmwiki-devel, which is not the
purpose of the pmwiki-devel list.  Please send any followups
to pmwiki-users.]

Pm