<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<title></title>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
John Rankin wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid1084278526john.rankin@affinity.co.nz" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Monday, 29 May 2006 1:55 PM, Dr Fred C <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:drfredc@drfredc.com"><drfredc@drfredc.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">There's all sorts of applications where having a deeper than
two dimensional hierarchy would be very nice.
For example, I'm managing a fledgling downtown association
site which is somewhat crippled by two dimensionalism.
HealthCare.Dentistry.DrA, HealthCare.MD.DrA and
HealthCare.Dentistry.DrB is not possible under PM wiki. Nor is
Financial.Banks.WellsFargo, Financial.Insurance.JoesInsurance,
and Financial.Mortgage.MikesMortgage. Nor is
YouthSports.Soccer.Girls.Team94 and
YouthSports.Soccer.Boys.Team95. Etc. etc.
Sure, there are (somewhat clumsy) workarounds.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
I'd like to note an additional workaround: subpages.
This has the wholly pragmatic benefit that it can be
added to pmwiki in about 10 lines of php and nothing
breaks. It defines [[,subpage]] markup.
*It is not a hierarchy, but in some cases it may be
all that's needed.*
On page LocalElementary.TeacherJones the markup
[[,StudentBobbySmith]] generates a link to the page
LocalElementary.TeacherJones,StudentBobbySmith
This page becomes a subpage of LocalElementary.TeacherJones
On the subpage, a reference to [[,StudentJaneGrey]]
generates a link to the page
LocalElementary.TeacherJones,StudentJaneGrey
One can of course use (:pagelist:) to generate a list
of all subpages to LocalElementary.TeacherJones
I think it's important to distinguish between use cases
that can be solved with subpages and those that require a
hierarchy. Subpages are widely implementd in other wikis,
so they might be a useful place to start.
Where an application appears to require a hierarchy, it
may be helpful for the administrator to consider whether
subpages can solve it sufficiently well.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""><snip>
Or schools
LocalElementary/TeacherJones/StudentBobbySmith
Exactly how many more examples do you need?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Wouldn't subpages help in all the examples given and be
sufficient in 4 of the 5?
</pre>
</blockquote>
Subpages might work fine for many applications with some savings in
code and parsing. Perhaps it's a good place to start.<br>
<br>
That being said, I'm not entirely sure from an enduser perspective how
subpages differs from having a hierarchy. <br>
<br>
For example, would StudentBobby's subpage be able to have its own set
of private subsubpages that might comprise Bobby's various projects,
quizes, and homework over the year? <br>
<pre wrap="">LocalElementary.TeacherJones,StudentBobbySmith,ReportCard
LocalElementary.TeacherJones,StudentBobbySmith,Homework,Widgets
LocalElementary.TeacherJones,StudentBobbySmith,Homework,DoFunnys
LocalElementary.TeacherJones,StudentBobbySmith,Quiz,Widgets
Hmmm... would something like this structure work better?
LocalElementary,TeacherJones,StudentBobbySmith.Quiz,Widgets
It would seem upon reflection, the second option might work better as it would seem to get Bobby his own private "group" to work with. I'm not sure how such a change would be for TeacherJones to organize and manage her students, but I suppose it could be done easily enough with a search of some sort.
Which points out how this sort of end-user stuff tends to evolve from simple to more robust applications. There would seem to be a need for good documentation of how to properly organize utilize these new data structures and powers plus developing some sort of file management utilities to sort out the inevitable messes endusers and admins will make of things as they get started on using these new found powers.
Many users (and admins) may quickly find their wiki getting all mucking up with a need to rename files to keep the proper data structures. As part of this, there would also be a need to (attempt) track down and fix lost links created by any file name changes.
Then there's this sort of problem -- suppose TeacherJones gets replaced by TeacherMacDonald halfway thru the year?).
LocalElementary,TeacherJones,StudentBobbySmith.Quiz,Widgets somehow needs to get seamlessly changed to LocalElementary,TeacherMacDonald,StudentBobbySmith.Quiz,Widgets
Perhaps upon further reflection, the organization might better be
LocalElementary,StudentBobbySmith.TeacherJones,Quiz,Widgets?
LocalElementary,StudentBobbySmith.TeacherMacDonald,Quiz,Dofunnys?
It would be nice, but unrealistic, to think that all data (group, subgroup, etc) structures will be created properly the first implementation. I'd like to retire next week, but that ain't happening either...
Also, if one starts managing (changing) file names, and potentially losing lots of wikilinks, one might also need to provide a toggle for admins to offer a question to be asked when clicking on a new link '?' about whether or not to create and edit a new page, or perhaps to search for a lost page link?
Or put another way, am I the only one currently using wikis who can't remember the name of other wiki pages I'd like to refer to and end up looking around for proper link names during previews or after saving a page finds a new link name guess was wrong? Upon seeing 'LostLink?' there might be some option to search for page CanOfWorms, and upon finding the page CanOfWorms, the 'LostLink?' reference could be automatically changed to CanOfWorms.
--------------------
</pre>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:christian.ridderstrom@gmail.com">christian.ridderstrom@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
<blockquote cite="mid1084278526john.rankin@affinity.co.nz" type="cite">
<pre wrap=""></pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Is there some wiki page that contains user cases that
illustrates cases where one would like to have some kind of
hierarchy? If not, I think maybe we should start one.
The long thread on hierarchical groups was interesting, but I
think I'd like to start with understanding why it is needed.
(As an aside, I'm all for having some kind of hierarchy, but
knowing why we want something will help us see what we want).
As for motivation, what I do know is that all the technically
savvy people I've introduced to pmwiki lately have all assumed
that some kind of hiearchy was possible. Several of them felt
that some kind of hierarchy was necessary for technical
documentation of a stuff like a product structure.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Always, Dr Fred Chittenden
</pre>
</body>
</html>