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<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua" color=#ff0000>Response,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua" color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua" color=#ff0000>This may irritate some but I've
been around the block and know whereof I speak. So advance apologies to those
offended. It is not intentional</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>Message: 10<BR>Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 23:48:00 +0200<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:chr@home.se">chr@home.se</A><BR>Subject: [pmwiki-users] Re:
cobblers children<BR>To: <A
href="mailto:pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com">pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com</A><BR>Message-ID:
<<A
href="mailto:Pine.LNX.4.44.0508052343010.13966-100000@ludde.md.kth.se">Pine.LNX.4.44.0508052343010.13966-100000@ludde.md.kth.se</A>><BR>Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1<BR><BR>On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, John W Morris
wrote:<BR><BR>> I really hate having to scroll down through a very long
list to find the<BR>> message I want to read. The previous mode of
attachments at least let<BR>> me select the message I wanted to read and
get to it directly.<BR><BR>Um.. are you talking about the mailing list
here?</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"></FONT> </DIV><FONT
face="Book Antiqua"></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#ff0000>Um.. yes, I could have been more explicit, my fault. Mea
Culpa</FONT><BR><BR>> Given: most all of us "readers" use html in our
email views<BR><BR>(on a sidenote, I don't use the HTML in my email
view...)<BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#ff0000>Given: numerous internet stats on who is using what email readers
and browsers... most of us are using html, with pictures, background and
such. Most any unix terminal I know of is running some version of
x-windows with some window manager. (graphics rule, characters drool
<G>)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><BR>>
so we can handle internal links, therefore, can something better be done<BR>>
with this list? It is not the 'wiki' itself so is not deserving of<BR>>
massive attention and labor... but... it is one of the tools that help<BR>>
shape and often repair that 'wiki' and lead us to understanding.<BR><BR>Hang
on... are you talking about a mail digest, i.e. when you get <BR>everyting from
one day in a single message? And you'd like links for this <BR>thing?</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#ff0000>Nope... happy to get info in any form. Do recognize when the form
can be more friendly though.</FONT><BR><BR>> Proposed
solutions:<BR>> a.. at the least... go back to
attachments.<BR>> b.. at the best... put the list on the wiki
(great for archive and search functions) and send notifications via email with
hot links to discussion pages. That way one discussion can be
carried on one page and the whole history of the discussion is in one place for
review and later archive.</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#ff0000>There is a phrase that goes "run what you brung". Too often
ignored. Using Emacs or VI and a character based terminal or program
for email and writing sophisticated software seems sort of a miss-match.
IMHO.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#ff0000>I've read Pm's comments on focusing on the user. The
user is running a balls to the wall hot machine with graphics and sound that
will blow windows out. They are used to and expect software that
work they way they think it should and want it
<STRONG><U>intuitive</U></STRONG>. They DO NOT READ manuals.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#ff0000>So... why are we not using the tool we are trying to make even
better than it is? If it is good, use it.... if it is lacking, fix
it and then use it.</FONT><BR><BR>Have you tried reading the list through gmane?
That'll give you links and <BR>thread views and whatnot. See here for
instance<BR><BR><A
href="http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.wiki.pmwiki.user">http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.wiki.pmwiki.user</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#ff0000>Tried it. Of course I had no idea it was there. I
saw discussions on "gmane" which seemed cryptic and not
apparently useful. I tried it and noted however that the search
couldn't find the word "cobbler" in the message I was reading on the
screen. So that sort of turned me off to it's use. In fact no search I did
generated any result but repainted the search window. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#ff0000>IMHO - this is a pretty much a cryptic character based
application that few real world users will spend much time
with. First - it's not graphic and pretty... sorry, reality bites
sometimes. Selection windows are not labeled. ie. two windows,
one labeled 1 to some large number... and it does what?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#ff0000>Next window had what appear to be actions. I selected
"followup" and other than the word appearing in the window, nothing
happened. Someone probably knows what these items are for but do you
seriously think most people will poke around long to try and discover what they
do and are for?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#ff0000>Now that I've irritated the pmwiki world, I will again observe
silence.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#ff0000>Thank you for your patience and forbearance,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#ff0000>John Morris</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>