[pmwiki-users] wysiwyg editor for wiki

[Pico]

Chris Cox <ccox <at> airmail.net> writes:

> 
> John Rankin wrote:
> > On Thursday, 20 July 2006 4:09 PM, Chris Cox <ccox <at> airmail.net> wrote:
> ....snip...
> >>I'll add my two cents.
> >>
> >>It can NEVER be WYSIWYG... at best it is WYSIAWYG, but probably,
> >>WYSISWYG (A=Almost, S=Sometimes).  There are WAY too many variables
> >>that will prevent true WYSIWYG... which means that you will basically
> >>end up with something that is a pretty markup editor... not much
> >>of a step up from just plain ole markup and unlike pure markup,
> >>the exact interpretation of the "pretty editor" markup is undefined
> >>and will vary greatly from site to site and possibly (and likely)
> >>within a single site.
> >>
> > I agree, but have failed to convince those who demand a form of 
> > WYSIWYG. The Lyx community uses the term WYSIWYM -- what you see 
> > is what you Mean. This is a helpful distinction, as it nicely 
> > encapsulates the idea that markup defines the structure and 
> > semantics of the content. It is also consistent with the approach 
> > some XML editors, such as Syntext Serna, have adopted.
> > 
> > So I suggest that what people are actually wanting is a WYSIWYM
> > editor and we think about it in those terms. The WYSIWYG part is
> > perhaps restricted to purely stylistic markup, like colours.
> 
> Just think... what is bold?  Bold is whatever the custom
> style/css says it is on my box, which could change depending
> on the context inside of any given wiki, any group, any page,
> inside of any page.  Just an example.
> 
> This is a much, much, much harder issue UNLESS you make
> tons of assumptions or greatly limit (hinder) site customizations.
> 
> People who want WYSIWYG need/want a much more limited wiki than
> PmWiki.  Or at least a PmWiki with a fixed (unchangeable) style
> and possibly a set of procedural rules.
> 
> It's like giving someone a black pen and asking them to always
> write with that pen... everything goes fine (ok) until somebody
> hands them a black sheet of paper.  Then you need a different
> pen... and suddenly you realize we've created a bigger problem
> than the one we were trying to solve.
> 
I agree that WYSIWYM is much better than nothing, and the fact that it falls
short of WYSIWYG seems insignificant by comparison with the huge gap that
currently exists between our editing interface and output.  For my own editing,
I have no problem with the current setup (but then I started with vi on Unix),
but when I look at what so many friends, family and total strangers have tried
to enter into PmWiki pages, I think there is a fundamental disconnect between
what people must be expecting and what PmWiki ends up providing.  For example,
in an editing screen where the text you enter is beging wrapped as you type, it
is close to a universal expectation that manually adding a carrage return will
force a new line.  It is an expectation that is honored in the non-WYSIWYG
systems editing systems that people interact with, such as e-mail clients and
webmail innterfaces.  Similarly, who comes to PmWiki prepared for the
consequences of adding a few spaces to indent a new line or item.  

If PmWiki recognized and honored the likely expectations of the uninitiated,
then a single return might generate a break, a double return a paragraph, a
double return followed by several spaces a paragraph and indent.  A line that
starts with more than n spaces might be centered.  (After a larger number of
spaces, the line might be right justified).  That does not mean that we would
all have to start using spaces instead of styles, but it would mean that
visitors to our sites would not need to be initiated into the secret society of
white space in order to have their ascii respected.

So, to make sure that I am clear here, I am not talking about some holy grail of
WikiWYSIWYG.  The goal is much more modest.  I called it WYGWNSY ("what you get
will not surprise you") in PITS/00773 before I knew about WYSIWYM, but whatever
we call it, I think it would be a huge first step (and I think that for many
people who are thinking about WYSISYG, that first step might be enough).