[pmwiki-users] Proposed Default Stylesheet (pmwiki.css)

[H. Fox]

On 2/18/06, Patrick R. Michaud <pmichaud at pobox.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 18, 2006 at 02:50:58AM -0700, H. Fox wrote:
> > On 2/17/06, Patrick R. Michaud <pmichaud at pobox.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >     <h1>Heading</h1>
> > > > > > >     <p>Here's my first paragraph</p>
> > > > > > >     <p>Here's my first paragraph</p>
> > >
> > > I'm not trying to be mysterious or opaque,  I'm just trying to
> > > get a better understanding of your perceptions of CSS and how
> > > it should work.  :-)
> >
> > What's mysterious is why you wold think it would be done any differently.  :-)
> >
> > IOW it seems like a "trick question" because I would use the same
> > lines of CSS, save for the line-height of 1em.  Hopefully that doesn't
> > reveal some big misunderstanding of CSS  on my part!
> >
> > http://qdig.sourceforge.net/wiki-skins/sshots/Test/CSSMarginTestZero.html
> > http://qdig.sourceforge.net/wiki-skins/sshots/Test/CSSMarginTestOne.html
> > http://qdig.sourceforge.net/wiki-skins/sshots/Test/CSSMarginTestTwo.html
>
> My apologies in advance for the somewhat labored precision of what follows --
> I really am just trying to understand what's going on and having trouble
> expressing myself clearly.
>
> It has been my impression -- very possibly mistaken -- from the images
> and things you've been writing that you feel it should be possible
> for an author to obtain vertical spacing between a heading and its
> subsequent paragraph that is *smaller* than the normal vertical
> spacing between two paragraphs.  This is the meaning I've been taking
> from the statement "the author is given a small amount of control
> over whitespace under headings" and the various discussions of
> vspace paragraphs.

Got it. Best would be where the margin is small by default and extra
space could be inserted by the author if desired, so the author can
make the whitespace *larger*, not smaller.  This was not my original
thought, but the idea of eating the first newline that follows a
heading opens up a new, better possibilities.

By way of example, consider two non-heading, non-paragraph block
elements, a table and a div...  These two

   (:table:)
   (:cell:)
   text
   (:tableend:)
   >>division<<
   text
  >><<

are close together, whereas these two have some space in between.

   (:table:)
   (:cell:)
   text
   (:tableend:)

   >>division<<
   text
   >><<

So what we seem to be moving toward (my hope, anyway) is to have these
two render as a (relatively) small margin below a heading.

   !!Heading
   Text

   !!Heading

   Text

and this will render with an amount of extra space similar to the
amount of extra space in the example with the table and div:

   !!Heading


   Text

> If you do indeed intend that it be possible for the vertical space
> below headings to be smaller than inter-paragraph spacing, none
> of the HTML pages you give above demonstrate that capability -- at
> least, not in my browsers.  This is why I'm curious to know how
> you would expect this to be achieved with "W3C standard" HTML and CSS
> and present technologies, and why I "think it would be done
> any differently".  :-)

Sorry, but right now I'm foggy on how I would vary the space between
two block elements.  Probably either by varying the margin of one or
both elements, or, in a pinch, placing some kind of "spacer" element
between them.

> Knowing the answer to how you would do it in "normal HTML/CSS"
> would help me greatly in getting PmWiki to cleanly act in a similar
> manner (as opposed to a hack), especially with respect to PmWiki's
> use of vspace paragraphs following headings.

I'm not sure, but it's probably the same way as the whitespace between
any two block elements would be controlled.  I have a feeling someone
besides will know what the "correct" answer is.

Hagan